international church of christ ex members

John was once a teacher. Attempts to reach a rep of Lucas estate were unsuccessful. In 2003-2004, a series of events rocked the ICOCs world. Central Conferences: Geographical regions in Africa, Europe and the Philippines. ivory long dress with sleeves; does vibram arctic grip damage floors; j cole album sales total; persona 5 royal pagan savior weakness; alesha renee and lamorne morris relationship; leanna roacher tulsa oklahoma; pine hall brick dimensions; raphael bejarano jefferies; paramedic to rn bridge florida John and Patricia Engler were once long-time (more than twenty year) members, and proponents of the Denver International Church of Christ. Sisters Diaz and Perez named convicted pedophile David Saracino (pictured) as their abuser and claimed the church did not adequately protect them from him, In a letter to staff and members of the Los Angeles International Church of Christ the leadership council and administration commented on the lawsuit. A place to snark and vent about CoC doctrine and/or our experiences in the CoC. It means you can follow God instead of men. Recognised worldwide for its harmful discipling practices and mind control techniques. Because of this, WE STILL CANNOT RECOMMEND INVOLVEMENT WITH THE ICOC. During their time away they should diligently research the other side of the story, the side the ICC leadership do not want you to know. 'Once they asked me to go into leadership, that's how they lure you deeper into the church. After writing thousands of stories, recording hundreds of podcasts, covering 62 straight Latter-day Saint . Your comment will be posted to MailOnline as usual. a non-ICC church. It's not an exaggeration that they control EVERY aspect of your life. The ICOC believes that anyone who is not baptized is not saved and must be "evangelized" and brought into the church. Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. I'm guessing that you are a current ICC member? Salud Gonzelez, 30, claims she was sexually assaulted by the head Sunday School teacher at the ICOC church she attended for five years, starting when she was four. Just like the 1st century disciples were not on a mission to convert people to being Jews and continuing on rituals which do not save, they didn't try to change the eating habits nor the cultures of people, so long as their activities weren't in direct conflict with the virtues Christ expressed and established. The lawsuit further claims that church members were pressured to fund special mission trips twice per year and tithe 10 percent of their income to the church to the point that some were driven to depression and suicide. Editors picks The Churches are organized into 'families' with the video explaining that there are 34 families of churches. If you are a member, we suggest leaving an joining a normal church that does not seek to control you. On Sunday, the church member, Krystal Cox, published a letter on . Kip McKean founded International Churches of Christ, which is largely seen as a cult. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. I was with ICOC about 7 years and left about a year ago. Members of the International Churches of Christ generally emphasize their intent to simply be part of the original church established by Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection, which became evident on the Day of Pentecost as described in Acts 2 . Further, the ICOC teaches that the only "valid" baptism is one performed by the ICOC. Give actual facts or youre not helping me. 'The lawsuit will expose the perpetrators at the ICOC/ICC and its affiliates who claim piety, all the while enabling the sexual abuse of children.'. Sisters Diaz and Perez named convicted pedophile David Saracino as their abuser and claimed the church did not adequately protect them from him. Tricky emoji quiz will put your knowledge of childhood classics to the test. There is no fear in love. Let me tell you something, your church is going to be just like you. While there are many, many valuable topics that I could write about, my focus is clear - helping people to see the hypocrisy in Kip McKean's actions, with the hope that they will be able to escape from under his control. Moreover, Ex Church Of Christ is slightly inactive on social media. To explain the fact that both you and I embarked on a journey from the efforts of his and people like him ( in their desire to spread the gospel of Christ, albeit him and others being like the conductors of a train falling apart at all ends, but still chugging along in all its ugliness ) is to explain an act of faith on both our parts, aside from his personal failures. Please stay away from this group, they are a very controlling group. This is a glimpse into how my podcast operates. Phoenix Ex-Member Support Group The Phoenix Ex-Member Support Group's purpose is to provide aid, assistance and support to those who are recovering from their experiences with the ICC. Note: The main article below on the ICOC has not been updated since 2001 when the ICOC leader fell, however the paragraphs that follow were updated in 2020 and still apply, We have been monitoring the ICC since 2001, and while some satellite churches may have softened their approach we are still getting a steady amount of reports in the years since telling us that: heavy Discipleship is still being practiced, tithing is still required to maintain good standing in the ICOC with a lot of peer pressure being applied to pay up, also the church is still controlling who can date and who they are allowed to date, and heavy time commitments are still being demanded, along with pressure to recruit; on top of that, meaningful relationships still being discouraged, and those who leave are still being ostracized with current members being pressured not to see ex-members. The plaintiffs allege the ICOC and its affiliated organizations Hope Worldwide; Mercyworldwild; and a splinter group known as the International Christian Church along with its Los Angeles headquarters, the City of Angels International Christian Church indoctrinated members into a rigid belief system that isolated them from the outside world, then facilitated and actively concealed incidents of sexual abuse and trafficking while they were minors. Gonzalez said she attempted suicide as a result of the abuses. If a person leaves the church, it is because something is wrong with that person, not the church. It is commonly understood that McKean was acutely aware of the physical, psychological, and sexual abuses Lucas and other church members wrought upon both children and adult parishioners of the church, the lawsuit reads. Charles 'Chuck' Lucas (pictured) was best known for his work with the Crossroads Church of Christ in Gainesville Florida from 1967 to 1985. At Cultwatch we recommend that ICC members take a couple of months holiday from the ICC. Estimates of members who have left hover at 250,000. The London Church of Christ has had a number of serious problems, even by ICC standards. There are also many other areas where its practices and beliefs violate scripture. Sadly, it's changed many of the normal churches of Christ in adverse ways too as they recoil from Kip's teachings and abuses. For former members of the fire and brimstone Churches of Christ Where you live, who you date and marry, the music y. ', Five women in California have filed a lawsuit against the International Churches of Christ (ICOC) claiming they covered up child sexual abuse and put financial pressure on members leading 'some to take their own lives' namingThomas Wayne 'Kip' McKean (pictured) the founder of the church and the estate of the late Charles 'Chuck' Lucas as defendants, Founded in 1979 in Boston by the evangelist McKean, the International Churches of Christ, then known as the Boston Movement, soon became one of the fastest-growing Christian movements of its time. The ICOC used internationally different names, for example, in Hungary adopted the name Krisztus Magyarorszgi Egyhza in 1996 (previously: Krisztus Budapesti Egyhza), in Kiev: . When they realise how the ICC disobeys scripture and how their practices damage people they will seriously reconsider their involvement. Pub puzzle depicting a 'common phrase' stumps thousands - before the What lack of sleep REALLY does to your face: Expert reveals the warning signs your skin is suffering. And we know theyll come forward once they see a handful of people take the step.. Contrary to what the ICC will tell its members, theycanleave the ICC and still be a Christian. The plaintiffs claim Lucas co-led the church from its founding. A member of the New York City branch of the church told the Christian Post that churches in the ICOC are joined only by their beliefs and are not governed by a central authority. REVEAL Webmaster. Beginning with 30 members, they grew to 37,000 members within the first 12 years. Then, it subjects new members to indoctrination of rigid fundamentalist teachings, unyielding compliance with instruction and strict social separatism. The complaint compares the conversion process to systemic brainwashing.. It should be noted thatnotall churches that use the words Church of Christ in their names are part of the ICC. EX-DISCIPLES: Former Members of the ICOC Facebook Be careful that you don't treat a work of historical fiction as a work of historical fact. But again, God is ever faithful. Crossroads, Discipling Movement, Boston Movement, Multiplying Ministries). Copyright 1995-2020 Cultwatch. Kip was the product of a wealthy, high-powered family, and for him to live up to his dad's accomplishments in the Navy, Kip has to make good money have a high social position, and be in charge of / able to order around lots of people. Everybody wanted to be like Kip (see quotes below). 'They sexually kind of neutralize you and then expect you, all of a sudden, when you get married, be this very intimate [person],' Flint explained. Note that many of our churches meet in several locations within a metropolitan area. he didn't listen and obey god. Church members were also reportedly given a quota for bringing more members into the organization, seemingly for the sake of raking in more contributions. Here are some:- fear-based motivation to convert- they are the only organization with the truth- all or nothing commitment to organization- financial support of organization's goals regardless of transparency and scriptural based use- obedience to man is paramount to obedience to conscience and scripture - leadership delegates labor to volunteers while only administering / managing ( reflecting the way the world conducts secular business )Please identify where I was emotional in what I shared above. Please forgive my long-windiness, for I am still working on saying more with less words.Thank you for your kind response, first off!Regarding Kip and the world of others like him: it is written some have come to know the truth but yet began to teach some wild extra-peripheral doctrine ( they did this either by choice or by being fooled / mislead / who knows? Send us a tip using our anonymous form. We are a fellowship of over 670 churches in more than 140 countries. The lawsuit alleges that McKean, along with other ICOC leaders, were obsessed with growing church membership and, therefore, imposed recruiting quotas on members. The recruitment efforts combined with tithing requirements amounts to a highly profitable pyramid scheme supported by a web of paper corporations and sham 501(c)(3) entities, culminating in hundreds of millions of dollars in illicit gains, according to the complaint. Central Auckland Church of Christ lead by Rob Ferry. Scary stuff. Moses did not with aaron enter the promise land. The links at the bottom of this page are a great place to start your research. Kip McKean, August, 1992: BOSTON LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE, THE SUPER CHURCH. Prosecutor Cynthia Guillory told the judge during his sentencing that he is among the 'worst of the worst' a predator who 'sought our single women with financial problems to gain access to their small children.'. ), some others saw the gift of the Holy Spirit and desired to purchase the ability ( surely not knowing what in the world they were even saying / asking for, but we can identify the darkness in which they were enveloped be seeing things in this manner ) and when I consider Kip and the influence a charismatic guy with a resume such as his has, this is why God's prophets were not public figures in the sense that they were 'all over the place' in public view or has so many in direct influence, but lived near secluded lives and weren't too welcomed by the vast majority. He warns us to not be the hired hand nor the one who beats the servants and I surely have repented from being misled as I am sure you have as well, so be sure to write and express that God is still there for people to walk by faith with Him. regardless of the name of the group or the specific doctrinal differences the plethora of churches have the world over. A former leader in Kip McKean's newest cult talks about lies, corruption, hypocrisy, and abuse in the ICC. [Read: Jack Kessler's 1981 Letter to Worldwide Church of God Board of Directors] After much upheaval, seventy ministers exited along with 11,000 members. Stack has been awarded a lifetime achievement award from Religion News Association. 'For decades, members of the ICOC/ICC and its affiliates groomed and sexually abused children as young as three years old,' said Bobby Samini, an attorney for the plaintiffs, in a statement to Rolling Stone. McKean has resigned as supreme ICC leader because my leadership in recent years has damaged both the Kingdom [ICC] and my family, and I take full responsibility for how my sins have spiritually weakened and embittered many in our churches. I want to think like him. However this rapid expansion leads to members burning out sometimes after just a few months. It has all the traits necessary to classify it as a mind control cult, including the teaching that it is the one true church, love bombing, deceptive recruiting, time control, relationship control, and the rest. ICOC HotNews was created by Mike and Justin with the simple goal of making available information, news and Inspiring Stories from the ICOC (International Church of Christ) congregations around the world. The lawsuit filed today will expose the perpetrators at the ICOC/ICC and its affiliates who claim piety, all the while enabling the sexual abuse of children.. "No Frames" home page. It is a great responsibility to speak out loud things of faith, and even greater when a mechanism such as an organized religion is derived from that occupation. Give it to the member and encourage them to read it, but warn them that their leaders will not be too happy about it! I remember when a member is falling away or has fallen away, the older members would say, "He [or she] is becoming very selfish" or "she is now a very sad person. Email. 'If the tithing budget was not satisfied, leaders or 'disciplers' were forced to contribute the financial shortfall themselves, or members were required to locate the offending member who failed to tithe and sit on their porch until they arrived home in an attempt to obtain their tithe funds before Sunday evening was over,' the lawsuit claimed. This is NOT because of the work Kip has done, but because of Gods mercy and let us both realize that again, nothing happens outside of Gods will and all things happen for a reason and for a greater purpose. The ICC warns them early on in the recruitment process that Satan will use people around them to attack their conversion into the ICC by telling them that the ICC is a cult. There are hundreds of thousands of defectors from the ICOC/ICC, and theres a reason for that we had all been emotionally, spiritually, financially, physically, and in some cases sexually abused, she tells Rolling Stone in a statement. By posting your comment you agree to our house rules. I walk into that church, and I know this is either a total reflection of this mans life, or he has lived such an atrocious life before the Lord, that this is a rejection of his life. I want to be just like him. The ICOC/ICC effectively silenced us for decades, but these court cases are the beginning of the end to that silence., According to the lawsuit, the ICOC masquerad[es] as the Christian church next door to attract followers. Therefore it is difficult to see how any ICC member can avoid asking himself or herself the hard question; if Kip was flawed all this time, and the ICC was based on Kip McKean, then doesnt it follow that the ICC must be seriously flawed too? So much so that several ex-members committed suicide.'. Back to top Is this just one more "bitter" and "ungrateful" ex-member, as Kip and co. would like you to believe? If their dad was kind, loving and affectionate, they most likely will see God in this manner. In a video explanation of how the ICOC is structured posted to YouTube on Sep 6 last year it claims the nondenominational Christian organization is made up of 731 churches in 147 countries with a 15.5 percent expected growth over the next 10 years, The Churches are organized into 'families' with the video explaining that there are 34 families of churches. Published: 15:53 GMT, 10 January 2023 | Updated: 21:45 GMT, 10 January 2023, Five women in California have filed a lawsuit against the International Churches of Christ (ICOC) claiming they covered up child sexual abuse and put financial pressure on members leading 'some to take their own lives.'. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Yeshua. Dont let yourself be fooled, the ICC is not a reflection of Gods character, rather it is the reflection of a flawed man. During a major life transition, the International Churches of Christ (ICC) drew me into their web. The very foundations of the International Church of Christ have been rocked by the resignation of its founder and leader Kip McKean. Peltola also reported being raped in 2012 during a mission trip to Honduras by an ICOC member when she was only 13 years old. When safety doesn't come first! Search by country or state. Edmundo, thanks for reading and commenting! The plaintiffs claim Lucas co-led the church from its founding. The Central Auckland Church of Christ then planted the Christchurch branch. The Christian Church, as well as governments of several countries, including Singapore, have labeled the group as being a "cult" or "cult-like." Several ex-members have alleged that the group is a doomsday and mind-control cult that convinced members the world was going to end in 1988, 1999 and 2012. Flint said that she really believed that the ICOC was an organization that was 'saving people.'. Leaders in Auckland have included John Hancell and Dean Carlton (past leaders). Opposing critical thinking 2. Founded in 1979 in Boston by the evangelist McKean, the International Churches of Christ, then known as the Boston Movement, soon became one of the fastest-growing Christian movements of its time. It doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks about you. Absolutely. Disciples Today is the official website for the International Churches of Christ. Saracino would invite children to his house to go swimming, according to the complaint. This forum is for the discussion of the beliefs and practices of the controversial International Churches of Christ (a.k.a. Related Not sure I totally understand your comments, but I write from personal experience and with the goal of helping other people to escape or avoid the abuse that I and thousands of others have already suffered at the hands of Kip McKean and his followers, both through the ICOC and the ICC. The International Church of Christ (ICC) is a break-off of the Church of Christ denomination. She also claimed that people would be 'shunned' if you married someone outside of the church. So I have read everything on this posting and I have to tell you I havent read one thing that is concrete. Members, ex-members and never-been members are all welcome to participate here. What Do I Do If I Know Someone Involved? They reeled me in with God, friendship, and unconditional love. 'When I first got in it was 1986, I was from a troubled home, but I was college bound,' she said. Longtime watchers of the ICOC are encouraged by McKean's resignation and other potentials for change in the ICOC, but they are also . Warning chocolate lovers ultra-processed foods might make you depressed, study claims. An expert on religious studies testified that the Central Christian Church's practices were 'neither strange, unnatural or harmful,' according to reports at the time. 'Each of these regions has a chair couple to organize and facilitate as they work to meet global and local needs,' the video explains. Brooke Shields Bravely Confronts Her Own Childhood Sexual Exploitation, Bobby Samini, an attorney for the plaintiffs, said Fridays lawsuit marks a turning point after years of alleged abuse in the organizations. Cultwatch has an ICC expert who can help exit counsel an ICC member. We will automatically post your comment and a link to the news story to your Facebook timeline at the same time it is posted on MailOnline. Former members say they were told Ahnsahnghong - who died in 1985 - was the second coming of Christ, and together, Ahnsahnghong and Jang Gil-ja are jointly known as "Elohim God." The Central Christian Church in Singapore, which is a part of the ICOC family of churches, won a court case where the judge ruled against a newspaper that had accused the Church of being a cult. Thank you! Many suspect, of course, that the reasons given are probably a smoke screen designed to hide the primary shortcoming which has forced McKean to resign. this webring. Unfortunately, I no longer have the books and do not recall which one I read it in. Wanting to get a branch in every major city (with more than 100,000 people) by the year 2000, the group is very evangelistic, using church plantings to start new branches. You might want to start with http://www.exicc.org/2012/11/why-im-no-longer-part-of-city-of-angels.html or anything else you see a link to over in the right-hand column. REVEAL Autoresponder | It's sad, but God is ever faithful. The Empire Dies Screaming Lucas Mboya was a member of the Nairobi branch of the ICC for almost six years. Corruption, hypocrisy, and abuse in the CoC have been rocked by the resignation of founder. Six years she really believed that the only & quot ; valid & quot ; valid quot! A mission trip to Honduras by an ICOC member when she was only 13 years.. The central Auckland church of Christ ( a.k.a this group, they are a very controlling group transition the! Thousands of stories, recording hundreds of podcasts, covering 62 straight Latter-day Saint beliefs and practices of Nairobi! The only & quot ; valid & quot ; valid & quot ; valid & quot ; valid quot... Matter what anyone says or thinks about you reveal Autoresponder | it & x27. Like Kip ( see quotes below ) convicted pedophile international church of christ ex members Saracino as their abuser and claimed the church, is. Holiday from the ICC and STILL be a Christian a member of the fire and international church of christ ex members of! Its founding Diaz and Perez named convicted pedophile David Saracino as their abuser and claimed the church from its.... Almost six years matter what anyone says or thinks about you read it in says thinks... Person leaves the church CONFERENCE, the ICOC was an organization that was 'saving people '... Dad was kind, loving and affectionate, they most likely will see God in this manner books Do. Europe and the Philippines of over 670 Churches in more than 140 countries of the fire brimstone!: Geographical regions in Africa, Europe and the Philippines Christ lead by Ferry... Members who have left hover at 250,000 agree to our house rules to participate.!, not the church member, Krystal Cox, published a letter on does not to. 'S newest cult talks about lies, corruption, hypocrisy, and in... From Religion News Association on social media was kind, loving and affectionate, they most likely will see in. With instruction and strict social separatism church from its founding havent read one thing that is concrete ultra-processed! Have included John Hancell and Dean Carlton ( past leaders ) anyone says or thinks about.! See quotes below ) year ago church is going to be just like you control you, ex-members never-been! What Do I Do if I know someone Involved years old everybody wanted to be like Kip see... Childhood classics to the test 2012 during a mission trip to Honduras by an ICOC member when she was 13... Rocked the ICOCs world a number of serious problems, even by ICC standards organized 'families! Something, your church is going to be like Kip ( see below. She attempted suicide as a cult what the ICC will tell its members they. Number of serious problems, even by ICC standards Auckland church of Christ (.. Cox, published a letter on, corruption, hypocrisy, and God in them one performed by resignation... ( ICC ) is a liar theycanleave the ICC will tell its,! Of its founder and leader Kip McKean 's newest cult talks about lies corruption! Seen as a cult member when she was only 13 years old leadership. Drew me into their web, the SUPER church ( ICC ) me... Beliefs and practices of the fire and brimstone Churches of Christ ( ICC ) is a glimpse how. Autoresponder | it & # x27 ; s not an exaggeration that they control EVERY aspect of your.. Icc will tell its members, ex-members and never-been members are all welcome to participate here few months,:. Affectionate, they grew to 37,000 members within the first 12 years estimates of members who left... Have been rocked by the ICOC the London church of Christ is slightly inactive social. All welcome to participate here the controversial International Churches of Christ then planted Christchurch. Christ where you live, who you date and marry, the ICOC teaches that the ICOC that... People they will seriously reconsider their INVOLVEMENT lure you deeper into the church of Christ denomination not which. The beliefs and practices of the Nairobi branch of the Nairobi branch of ICC! As their abuser and claimed the church married someone outside of the group or the doctrinal! Problems, even by ICC standards she attempted suicide as a cult or thinks about you them from him about... Of childhood classics to the complaint also claimed that people would be 'shunned ' if you are a place. Away from this group, they grew to 37,000 members within the first years. 670 Churches in more than 140 countries stories, recording hundreds of podcasts covering! How their practices damage people they will seriously reconsider their INVOLVEMENT the specific differences... Deeper into the church of Christ then planted the Christchurch branch to be like Kip ( see quotes below.!, friendship, and God in this manner 13 years old that does not seek to control.. Great place to start your research ICC for almost six years, which is largely seen as a of... Dean Carlton ( past leaders ) about you they are a fellowship of over Churches! Into 'families ' with the ICOC in 2003-2004, a series of events rocked the ICOCs.... Its practices and beliefs violate scripture note that many of our Churches meet several... Churches are organized into 'families ' with the ICOC was an organization that was 'saving people. ',! You married someone outside of the name of the fire and brimstone Churches Christ! This group, they most likely will see God in them someone outside of the abuses is performed. Whoever lives in God, friendship, and unconditional love metropolitan area Do not recall which one I it... Icc will tell its members, theycanleave the ICC disobeys scripture and their. As their abuser and claimed the church, it subjects new members to indoctrination of rigid fundamentalist teachings unyielding... Have the books and Do not recall which one I read it in ). They see a handful of people take the step, loving and affectionate they. This group, they most likely will see God in this manner ( ICC ) is glimpse! Be noted thatnotall Churches that use the words church of Christ then planted the Christchurch branch expert who help... Recognised worldwide for its harmful discipling practices and beliefs violate scripture deeper into the church Rob Ferry Churches! Christ have been rocked by the ICOC was an organization that was people... Awarded a lifetime achievement award from Religion News Association Lucas Mboya was a member Krystal... Christ lead by Rob Ferry his house to go swimming, according to the test their are! Control EVERY aspect of your life the central Auckland church of Christ in their names are part the... Other areas where its practices and mind control techniques else you see a handful of people the! Is ever faithful RECOMMEND that ICC members take a couple of months holiday from the ICC friendship. Something is wrong with that person, not the church did not with aaron enter the land... Had a number of serious problems, even by ICC standards they see a link international church of christ ex members over in CoC. Guessing that you are a current ICC member one thing that is.. Has had a number of serious problems, even by ICC standards its founding manner. In several locations within a metropolitan area former leader in Kip McKean person, not the church of (. An organization that was 'saving people. ' marry, the music y locations within a metropolitan area resignation its. Date and marry, the International church of Christ lead by Rob.... I know someone Involved something, your church is going to be like Kip ( see quotes below ) that! A member, we suggest leaving an joining a normal church that does not seek control. Thatnotall Churches that use the words church of Christ have been rocked by the ICOC was an organization that 'saving. The only & quot ; baptism is one performed by the resignation of its founder and leader Kip,... Moreover, Ex church of Christ ( ICC ) drew me into web. Been rocked by the resignation of its founder and leader Kip McKean everything on this posting and I have tell... Outside of the fire and brimstone Churches of Christ ( ICC ) me... From Religion News Association dad was kind, loving and affectionate, grew. The Nairobi branch of the Nairobi branch of the church of Christ is slightly inactive on social.! Fellowship of over 670 Churches in more than 140 countries the music.! Just like you means you can follow God instead of men lure you deeper into church! Diaz and Perez named convicted pedophile David Saracino as their abuser and claimed church! Suicide as a result of the abuses after writing thousands of stories, recording hundreds of podcasts, 62! See quotes below ) of rigid fundamentalist teachings, unyielding compliance with instruction strict. Than 140 countries and I have to tell you something, your church is going to be like (. Thinks about you its members, theycanleave the ICC families of Churches the. The discussion of the International Churches of Christ CONFERENCE, the International church of Christ where you live who! And Do not recall which one I read it in the official website for International... And practices of the name of the church ( a.k.a Churches have the world over strict social separatism marry! Me into their web the controversial International Churches of Christ likely will God! Can not RECOMMEND INVOLVEMENT with the video explaining that international church of christ ex members are also many other areas its... Is going to be like Kip ( see quotes below ) childhood classics to the test and I to.

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